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Post by anfhiker on Nov 4, 2019 17:04:05 GMT -5
Jeff, you are the trail guru (seriously, I read your Backpacking PA and NY books all the time) but I really like the idea of using the West Rim over the Mid State for a few reasons. First is that the WRT is State Forest along its entire length, while the MST in that section does cross some private land. I've also really felt that Pine Creek was the eastern edge of the PA Wilds, just as the Allegheny River in the ANF over here is the western edge. The terrain and land use really start to change once you get outside those bounds, IMO. Second is that Ansonia has excellent parking options and the benefit of the Pine Creek Outfitters there for easy access if you needed help. Third is that I believe the WRT has much better camping options. Obviously I didn't pass every place on the MST but it seemed like camping was much harder to find. Fourth is that the MST already has a long distance trail...itself. The PAWT could be an excellent stand alone hike and the MST could be its own long distance hike. Fifth and finally, I feel like having a road walk make up the last third or so of a section of hiking felt like a bit too far to tack on, even though I was really looking forward to Sand Run Falls. Perhaps Antrim would be a good end point?
Anyway, I didn't feel that the MST was bad, per se...and I could see the allure that one could then travel north or and go just about anywhere on the Great Eastern Trail, which the MST is a part of. I will say that in my hike from Ansonia to Little Pine State Park in September, that section of the Mid State was beautiful and in absolutely brilliant shape. No joke: I ran into some trail maintainers who were using leaf blowers to blow trimmings off the trail. I was very impressed.
To go further back, I really enjoyed the T-Squared Trail and it would be a shame to lose it but the North Link Trail could be pretty and would add a lot of those vistas and camp sites down the County Line Branch. Plus having Spook Hollow as another shelter site would be great. I was a big fan of that spot when I hiked and camped there last October. And the DHT from the STS junction to Cougar Run has its good and poor. Bull Run was probably the worst of it and the trail was much better from the top of Seven Mile Run on, but didn't contain anything truly memorable outside of the State Forest memorial. The drop down Cougar Run was probably the best part.
A couple of other quick thoughts regarding routing: how is the Asaph Wild Area north of Ansonia? I know there are lots of trails there but I have never used them to know if a trail like this could extend up that way. I spend a lot of time map gazing and the Tioga and Susquehannock seem to be expanding trails all the time-perhaps in time there might be a route back to the Susquehannock from the northern side of the WRT? Or if the Game Lands were ever more open to hiking (personally I feel it just makes too much sense in the future for hikers to have a permit to use the Game Lands which would also open up some camping opportunities), there is a lot of Game Commission property north of Route 6 that could eventually provide some circuit options.
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 4, 2019 17:06:56 GMT -5
Is the Tamarack Tower going to be open? The old one was, but it has been completely rebuilt. I hope people can climb it because it does have great views. I believe it should be. I was able to walk up it in March when I visited, but not on my hike in October. They were working on the communications tower site so perhaps that has something to do with it. I hope as well that it opens up again because it might be the best view in the entire area from the top. I was a bit sad that I couldn't go up.
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Post by jmitch on Nov 4, 2019 20:22:57 GMT -5
I certainly understand your arguments for the WRT. I'd be curious to hear what others think.
Asaph had some nice trails, and was once considered for the MST route. There are some vistas I'd like to find on the southern slope, and Mill Run is said to have a glen with some falls and cascades, and I think there may be a falls in Herrington hollow.
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 4, 2019 21:18:44 GMT -5
Here's a point I will give to a route through the MST...if somehow you could go from Parker Dam to the North Country Trail or vice versa, you could make an epic monster loop hike with the NCT/Finger Lakes Trail, MST/Crystal Hills Trail and PAWT of what would have to be 400 miles or better.
I'll have to spend some time in Asaph this coming spring, or maybe do some snowshoeing there this winter. I've always spent my time on the south side of Rt 6 but I'm sure the north side has plenty going for it as well.
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ki0eh
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Post by ki0eh on Nov 4, 2019 21:41:52 GMT -5
It would be nice to figure out a way to get over to the OLP from Arnot, there are trails from Arnot Rd Sand Run Falls trailhead over to the Blossburg exit of US 15.
I did once figure out a route from Twin Lakes to Parker Dam connecting ANF to the Quehanna, mostly trails and forest roads, but also passing through Ridgway and Brockway. A couple miles on US 219 near Brockway seemed unavoidable, but there are a couple of restaurants along there.
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 4, 2019 21:47:38 GMT -5
It would be nice to figure out a way to get over to the OLP from Arnot, there are trails from Arnot Rd Sand Run Falls trailhead over to the Blossburg exit of US 15. I did once figure out a route from Twin Lakes to Parker Dam connecting ANF to the Quehanna, mostly trails and forest roads, but also passing through Ridgway and Brockway. A couple miles on US 219 near Brockway seemed unavoidable, but there are a couple of restaurants along there. Yeah, I was looking at the NCT to Twin Lakes to the Brush Hollow Trails, then south on Forest Roads and the rail trail from Ridgway. A trail would be feasible on the east side of Big Mill Run south of Brush Hollow as there is an old grade there but it's quite wet in areas and beavers have made dams in the area. Where I lose my knowledge is heading across the western part of the Moshannon State Forest. Lots of mining went on in that area it seemed.
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Post by jmitch on Nov 5, 2019 13:28:20 GMT -5
SGL 44 south of Ridgway has a trail system from a trail run that is held there. There are impressive boulders, cliffs, rock formations (Umbrella Rock) and a view.
Little off topic, but I think the ideal thing would be a bifurcated route of the North Country Trail through the PA Wilds. It would benefit the NCT with the great scenery and limited road walking, and benefit the Wilds by having a national scenic trail that would attract hikers and backpackers to the region.
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Post by superhiker on Nov 6, 2019 17:31:27 GMT -5
I’ve really enjoyed this thread. Thanks for the trip report and the follow up conversation. Love trail networks.
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Post by hoosier on Nov 7, 2019 7:36:37 GMT -5
I want to thank anfhiker for posting this trip report. So much fun to read along as his adventure unfolded. Also opened up some new areas for me to explore in the future
So thanks again for the fun to read and informative post
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 7, 2019 18:33:56 GMT -5
I'm glad you guys enjoyed it!! It was a lot of fun to hike and I was glad to relive it as I wrote the recap. Hopefully more will take this route in the future and it will become a legitimate trail destination.
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 7, 2019 18:56:08 GMT -5
Best Of
Best Orange blazed trail:
1. Black Forest Trail 2. Quehanna Trail 3. Susquehannock Trail 4. Mid State Trail 5. Donut Hole Trail
Best Yellow/Red blazed trail:
1. Crawford Vista Trail 2. Long Branch Trail 3. T-Squared Trail 4. Bridge Trail 5. Old Sinnemahoning Trail
Toughest Climb
1. Morgan Hollow (STS/DHT) 2. Naval Hollow (BFT) 3. Bobsled Hollow (STS/DHT) 4. Stone Quarry Run (MST) T5. Slate Run (BFT) T5. Ellicott Run (DHT)
Toughest Descent
1. Honey Run (DHT) 2. Little Slate Run (BFT) 3. Naval Hollow (BFT) 4. Callahan Run (BFT) 5. Porcupine Draft (QT)
Best Vista
1. BFT MM 41 (Descending to Slate Run) 2. BFT MM 2 (Ascending from Slate Run) 3. Kettle Creek Vista (DHT) 4. Hemlock Mountain facing west at BFT MM 30 5. Crawford Vista (QTCC)
A shout out here to the Tamarack Fire Tower, which would have made the list if it wasn't closed.
Prettiest Stream
1. Sanders Draft (QT) 2. Callahan Run (BFT) 3. Long Branch (LBT) 4. Mosquito Creek (QT) 5. Stony Fork (MST)
Best 5 Miles
1. Callahan Run to the end of Hemlock Mountain (BFT) 2. Crawford Vista to Bridge Trail (QTCC) 3. Slate Run gorge area (BFT) 4. Trout Run to Chestnut Ridge (QT) 5. Long Branch Trail to West Rim (LBT-WRT)
Best Camp Site
1. BFT Mile 2 at old stone quarry 2. BFT Mile 30 on Hemlock Mountain 3. Arch Springs (QT) 4. Scoval Branch Shelter (STS) 5. Callahan Run intersection (BFT)
Best Landmark to Look Forward to on a Thru-Hike
1. Kettle Creek Vista/State Park 2. Tamarack Fire Tower 3. Hotel Manor Restaurant (Slate Run) 4. Miller’s General Store (Blackwell) 5. Sand Run Falls-I didn’t get here but I’m sure it’s a highlight
Biggest Surprise
1. This is a very dry track. There was virtually no mud at any point. 2. I expected almost no cell service on this trip, but for the most part, I had service (Verizon) on top of every hill with the exception of much of the Quehanna and the western side of the BFT near Rte 44. 3. Many, if not all of the people I encountered were quite interested in the trail and where I’d hiked. It seems like it could catch on with a little marketing. 4. The weather was spectacular, which is unusual to have for a significant stretch of October. 5. In 175 miles of hiking, I had zero ticks end up on me without a single use of bug spray (no idea how)
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Post by trailnotfound on Nov 7, 2019 19:48:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the trip report, and for the bonus "best of" at the end! Really enjoyed reading it and checking out your pictures; you had incredible weather and the leaves look like they were around peak for the whole trip.
Gotta agree with many of your rankings too; Morgan's Hollow is brutal, Sanders Draft is incredible when the water's up, and I might even put Bridge Trail / EXC above that stretch of the BFT, but I think it's a minority view. I always ignored Old Sinnemahoning Trail, but maybe it's time to visit.
Thanks again!
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 7, 2019 20:25:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the trip report, and for the bonus "best of" at the end! Really enjoyed reading it and checking out your pictures; you had incredible weather and the leaves look like they were around peak for the whole trip. Gotta agree with many of your rankings too; Morgan's Hollow is brutal, Sanders Draft is incredible when the water's up, and I might even put Bridge Trail / EXC above that stretch of the BFT, but I think it's a minority view. I always ignored Old Sinnemahoning Trail, but maybe it's time to visit. Thanks again! Yeah, there was a lot of color for most of the trip. My phone only did an ok job of capturing how beautiful it really was out there. I really love the Quehanna so it's hard for me to try to be more objective about other parts of the state. Those giant meadows are just so striking and I was ashamed that I had never been on the Crawford Vista or Bridge Trails before. Combined with the rest of the ECC and the Teaberry and Lincoln Trails...it's a real gem. The Old Sinnemahoning Trail was a surprise in how good shape it was. It's too bad there's not a view somewhere overlooking the town because it could be a really well used trail I think. Also, I'm working on compiling maps, GPS files and hopefully putting my 100+ videos I took into something worth throwing on YouTube. So there may be more to come eventually for anyone else who may want to hike the route.
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ki0eh
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Post by ki0eh on Nov 10, 2019 9:20:31 GMT -5
It would be nice to figure out a way to get over to the OLP from Arnot, there are trails from Arnot Rd Sand Run Falls trailhead over to the Blossburg exit of US 15. I did once figure out a route from Twin Lakes to Parker Dam connecting ANF to the Quehanna, mostly trails and forest roads, but also passing through Ridgway and Brockway. A couple miles on US 219 near Brockway seemed unavoidable, but there are a couple of restaurants along there. Yeah, I was looking at the NCT to Twin Lakes to the Brush Hollow Trails, then south on Forest Roads and the rail trail from Ridgway. A trail would be feasible on the east side of Big Mill Run south of Brush Hollow as there is an old grade there but it's quite wet in areas and beavers have made dams in the area. Where I lose my knowledge is heading across the western part of the Moshannon State Forest. Lots of mining went on in that area it seemed. There is a traffic free gated road (Whetstone Road) through the Brockway watershed to get up onto Boone Mountain with some scattered State Forest areas to camp in up top before circling around on forestry roads by Tyler to Parker Dam. Cross 153 directly, but a little bit of walking on 255 by Tyler.
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ki0eh
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Post by ki0eh on Nov 10, 2019 10:09:08 GMT -5
Best OfToughest Climb 4. Stone Quarry Run (MST) Best Landmark to Look Forward to on a Thru-Hike 4. Miller’s General Store (Blackwell) 5. Sand Run Falls-I didn’t get here but I’m sure it’s a highlight Biggest Surprise 1. This is a very dry track. There was virtually no mud at any point. 4. The weather was spectacular, which is unusual to have for a significant stretch of October. The MST reroute north from Blackwell, 1100'+ in about a mile, will probably move that area up on the climb list. www.gaiagps.com/datasummary/track/af4cca6ed9f9e7b438b8b8a1ee40ff17/?layer=GaiaTopoRasterFeetDuncan Tavern in Antrim is set up a little better for thru-hiker appetites than Miller's, and offers a different vibe. MST actually moved this summer to pass it directly, rather than rely on people turning at a now-closed church. The old off-road route by Antrim went well away from the tavern, and it could get mushy (and in later years, after a timber harvest on the private timberland, briery, before it closed when a mid-stream pipeline was dug basically along the path); the scenery was basically wildlife spotting. MST also added this summer a very short side path to view a waterfall on Sand Run (peculiarly, not the same Sand Run as the well known Sand Run Falls in the same MST section) at the bottom of the Antrim hill, and more importantly a water draw point in the middle of what otherwise is 7-8 miles between questionable sources. Nickel Run Falls, which was supposed to be directly along the proposed MST route but fell afoul of a last-minute land management hitch banishing it to a side trail, is a worthy diversion (honestly, much better than the East Rim views north of Stone Quarry Run, which have closed up considerably in 15 years). None other than Nessmuk himself wrote a poem about "Mickle" Run Falls (older spelling, shown in an 1860 law and 1923 map to be same stream). It's higher, but can dry up (unlike Sand Run Falls). Dryness is extremely relative to time of year and perception. I've run mowers through standing water on LBT and MST on the plateau tops in May/June time frame; this hike hit just at the end of a fairly long dry spell. It's definitely not "very dry" compared to, say, North Fork Mountain in WV, or MST Sections 2 and 7, so I hope the readers don't start comparing your narrative to, say, the Colorado Plateau. MST south, and some of PaWT west, from Blackwell is on the Eastern States 100 route; trail runner folks are working quite a bit on clearing before their late-summer event - they seem now much more numerous, and of course fit, compared to the "ok boomers" of KTA. The steps on lower Bohen Trail were done in less than a week by KTA volunteers in 2004; it took a Forestry crew to come in for the bridge to replace two of them when a big hemlock fell and took only two of the steps out. Meanwhile the relocation (smaller scope) on the opposite hill isn't done after three weekends, as evidence of the degradation of KTA capabilities in 15 years. A mix of public and private lands is probably not going to make it onto the running event roster. KTA needs to solve its problem of connecting with newer volunteers, or even just more of the empty-nesters as many hands make light work. If I knew how to fix that, I would.
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Post by anfhiker on Nov 15, 2019 7:27:49 GMT -5
ki0eh,
Thanks for all the info on the MST. I saw the junction with the Fork Hill Trail as I got to the top of the Stone Quarry hill. Is that where the trail is being rerouted? It looked to be a challenging climb, for sure.
Also, I hope that I haven't misrepresented anything regarding the conditions. Obviously here in PA is not going to compare to somewhere truly dry, but I do believe Potter and Tioga are the driest counties in the state. Still, there was plenty of water for drinking, even in the slightly dry time we were having. I meant the "dry track" comment as a compliment to trail designers and maintainers. It was well routed to avoid the mud that I'm very used to here in the ANF and Allegany State Park area. I was on the Long Branch Trail in July and it was flooded out so I was pleased to see that it recovered for the dry season.
Anyway, all good info you gave. Thanks for sharing.
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ki0eh
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Post by ki0eh on Nov 17, 2019 8:28:54 GMT -5
ki0eh, Thanks for all the info on the MST. I saw the junction with the Fork Hill Trail as I got to the top of the Stone Quarry hill. Is that where the trail is being rerouted? It looked to be a challenging climb, for sure. Also, I hope that I haven't misrepresented anything regarding the conditions. Obviously here in PA is not going to compare to somewhere truly dry, but I do believe Potter and Tioga are the driest counties in the state. Still, there was plenty of water for drinking, even in the slightly dry time we were having. I meant the "dry track" comment as a compliment to trail designers and maintainers. It was well routed to avoid the mud that I'm very used to here in the ANF and Allegany State Park area. I was on the Long Branch Trail in July and it was flooded out so I was pleased to see that it recovered for the dry season. Yes, Fork Hill Trail is most of the reroute. Had to dig 400 m of new trail to stay on State Forest land all the way to the rail trail. It's live enough to be on the Mid State Trail Guthook already. Compliments to Jeff for picking the links in the chain. There are definitely muddier ways to get across the Quehanna than the selected paths!
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Post by trailnotfound on Dec 20, 2019 12:20:34 GMT -5
So I just learned that I'll likely have June free this coming summer, and am thinking about attempting the PAWT. You gave a "best of" list, but any "worst of" points you'd want to share? I'd probably be making some deviations from the route to skip stuff I've already done a bunch, so I don't mind also skipping some least favorite spots.
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Post by anfhiker on Dec 23, 2019 9:11:31 GMT -5
Nice!! Being out in the woods anywhere is a blessing, but if I had to pick a spot that I liked the least on this route, it would be the Bull Run Trail section of the Donut Hole Trail. Much of the DHT is not greatly maintained, but this section was the worst. I can imagine in June that it would be even more frustrating. It was just a lot of brush and rocks that I couldn't see well. In addition, there weren't any camp sites that I could find in that section of trail so I ended up putting my tent right in the middle of the trail just up Sevenmile Run. Maybe you're a hammock camper so it's not too big a deal, but it was more of one to me. There are a few parts of the DHT and STS that would be pretty bad with nettles during the summer, including Long Hollow. I'm sure you know that a few parts of the QT are thick with them as well.
Some might say that the T Squared or Algerine Trails aren't very scenic, although I enjoyed them both as they are in great shape and I enjoy the laurel/oak woods. All in all, I think this is a great route with few areas that aren't scenic or pleasing.
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Post by anfhiker on Dec 23, 2019 9:17:05 GMT -5
I also want to mention that I have the track and maps from my route, and did some drawing to "finish" the route. I marked camp sites and streams and water sources, etc. I have them saved on my computer and would be willing to offer them to anyone who could upload them to a higher quality site than my Flickr.
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